Discussion:
6 Years
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Bruce Watson
2015-11-18 05:15:29 UTC
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Today I'm 6 years older than my dad got to be. He was a lifelong smoker. I quit 39 years ago.
nightlight
2015-11-25 11:35:17 UTC
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Post by Bruce Watson
Today I'm 6 years older than my dad got to be. He was a lifelong smoker. I quit 39 years ago.
Were you real smoker at all? How long and how much did you smoke before quitting?
Steve O
2015-11-26 12:22:24 UTC
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Post by nightlight
Today I'm 6 years older than my dad got to be. He was a lifelong smoker. I quit 39 years ago.
Were you real smoker at all? How long and how much did you smoke before quitting?
What is your definition of a "real smoker'?

If you mean "Was he really addicted to nicotine?" I'm guessing the
answer will be yes.
Bruce Watson
2015-11-27 17:34:54 UTC
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Post by nightlight
Were you real smoker at all? How long and how much did you smoke before quitting?
I was a "real" smoker. I grew up in a household with cigarette smoke at a time when nearly half of the population smoked. My dad smoked a lot. I figured he must really like it to smoke so much. There was no question I would try it when I got older.

I started at 18 my college freshman year. At first I could go without, even quitting for months but by age 23 I became brand loyal meaning only my preferred brand would satisfy. At about 30 I began buying by the carton. Well before that I realized I was hooked. That wasn't the original plan. The idea was to have a cigarette now and then like a drink at the end of the day.

I noticed most of my friends didn't need to smoke to enjoy themselves or to get through the day. I began to envy that. I asked myself what smoking was doing FOR me. Actually nothing. Every smoker knows what immediate and long-term harm it does. After years of making excuses I faced the truth I had been avoiding.

I quit at age 33. I had worked up from zero to about 2-1/2 packs or more a day in 15 years giving me approximately a 20-pack-year exposure.

My dad followed my example 3 years later. It was too late. He was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer the following year and died the next.

I probably have twice the risk of a never smoker for lung cancer compared to, perhaps, 50 times had I continued, to the present, smoking heavily. My doctor does not recommend screening. The criteria are 1) aged between 55 and 79 (I am), 2) 30 pack-years or more (20), and 3) still smoking or quit 15 years or less (I quit 39 years ago).

My risk of heart disease from smoking is no greater than that of a never smoker.

We all lose lung function as we age. Smoking increases that loss. I stopped that additional loss 39 years ago.

I not only avoided immediate and future physical harm from smoking but saved a huge amount of money. I could not afford to retire if I had continued to smoke. Also I avoided today's restrictions. I can travel, dine out, go just about anywhere and not be jonesing for a nicotine fix.
nightlight
2015-12-15 14:29:26 UTC
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Post by Bruce Watson
Post by nightlight
Were you real smoker at all? How long and how much did you smoke before quitting?
I was a "real" smoker. I grew up in a household with cigarette smoke at a time when nearly half of the population smoked. My dad smoked a lot.
...My dad followed my example 3 years later. It was too late. He was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer the following year and died the next.
That is quite typical -- getting lung cancer within a year or two from quitting smoking. That "paradox" has also been observed in animal experiments as well. There is even a scientific paper provocatively titled "Are lung cancers triggered by stopping smoking?" Med. Hypotheses 2007; 68(5):1176 -> http://www.medical-hypotheses.com/article/S0306-9877%2806%2900780-8/abstract (I have collected over years about 50 references on the same topic. See this post for further discussion and citations: http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/38868-smoking-is-good-for-you/page-10#entry388800 )

It's clear tobacco smoke was protecting him from lung cancers caused by some real lung carcinogens, such as car exhausts, industrial pollutants, SV40 contaminated polio vaccines given to tens of millions Americans in 1950-60s, radon and radiation from atmospheric tests of atomic weapons (which only stopped in 1960s).
Bruce Watson
2015-12-15 17:03:53 UTC
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"And why dwell on smoking as the prime suspect? There was arguably as much reason to blame the gas-guzzling automobile culture, with its ubiquitous spread of noxious fumes and asphalt dust. While the automobile pollution might well be contributing to the rise in lung
cancer, Hammond and Horn noted, it could not explain why the retrospective studies to date were revealing a disproportionately high incidence of the disease among smokers; if cars were at fault,smokers and nonsmokers ought to be affected equally."

Richard Kluger, Ashes to Ashes, Knopf, 1996, p. 146.
nightlight
2015-12-15 20:42:03 UTC
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Post by Bruce Watson
it could not explain why the retrospective studies to date were revealing a disproportionately high incidence of the disease among smokers; if cars were at fault,smokers and nonsmokers ought to be affected equally
That's like asking why disproportionate number of people using blood pressure meds end up with more heart attacks and strokes than people who don't use these meds (because they don't need them). Or why people who wear sunglasses will statistically end up with more sunburns than who don't wear them (because they don't need them e.g. indoors/nightly folks or those living in less sunny climate).

The positive statistical correlation (on _non-randomized_ samples) between some disease D and consumption of X exists and can be equally strong, whether X causes D or whether it is therapeutic/protective against D or its precursors.

They key term in this "paradox" is in the condition "on _non-randomized_ samples" i.e. that subjects in such study are not randomly selected by researchers 'to consume X' or 'not to consume X', but consume X for reasons of their own (e.g. people exposed to sun will more often decide to wear sunglasses) which are outside the control of the researchers.

In normal science (unlike antismoking "science"), whenever such correlations are observed on non-randomize samples, the real _hard science_ is done in the followup (randomized study or experiment). Only hard science can disentangle the often complex web of causes and effects and then uncover the nature of the links (causal/protective) connecting X and D, which were only hinted at by the non-randomized study.

Strangely, as even your own above post illustrates, with antismoking "science" all you will hear about, for over 60 years since it started in the USA & UK, are the non-randomized studies, discovering that smokers have more of this or that health problem than non-smokers. Where was the normally immediate hard science followup to establish the nature of such statistical links observed on non-randomized samples? Why trot out only the weakest and most ambiguous kind of evidence?

Interestingly, already in 1958 the father of scientific statistical techniques, famous UK mathematician R.A. Fisher noticed this peculiarity of the antismoking "science" and called them out on it (pdf: http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/maths/histstat/fisher274.pdf ):

"<b>But the time has passed</b>, and although further investigation, in a sense, has taken place, it has consisted largely of the <b>repetition of observations of the same kind</b> as those which Hill and his colleagues called attention several years ago. I read a recent article to the effect that nineteen different investigations in different parts of the world had all concurred in confirming Dr. Hill's findings. I think they had concurred, but I think <b>they were mere repetitions of evidence of the same kind.</b>"

Yet, over half century later, they are still stuck spinning in the same hint & wink loop, parroting only the non-randomized associations as their science.

It's not that many experiments on this question were not done in these 6 decades. There were hundreds. The reason you won't hear about them is that they all went the "wrong" way -- smoking animals end up living longer, staying healthier and sharper into the old age (e.g. in radon exposure experiments, smoking dogs get 7 times less often lung cancer than non-smoking dogs). Similarly, in _randomized_ quitting trials on humans (group of smokers randomly divided in 2 halves, then one half pressured into quitting, the other half left alone to smoke as before), the quit group ends up within several years or decades with more lung cancers (or heart attacks) than smoking group.

How can that be? Just like that example with use of blood pressure meds correlating with more strokes and heart attacks, tobacco is an ancient panacea with therapeutic or protective effects for numerous health problems. Hence its use will correlate (on _non-randomized_ samples) precisely with health conditions/diseases for which it is therapeutic or protective.

For example, smokers are twice or more as likely to get rheumatoid arthritis (R.A.) than non-smokers. As result doctors will strongly urge their R.A. patients to quit smoking. Yet, when animal experiments are done, both nicotine alone, but more so the full tobacco smoke, are strongly protective against R.A., delaying its onset and reducing its severity in existent cases.

Hence, it is the well established potent anti-inflammatory effects of tobacco smoke (and weaker ones of nicotine alone) that are the underlying mechanism for observed positive statistical correlation between R.A. and smoking, exactly like that between use of blood pressure meds & future strokes or heart attacks.

For references & discussion of the above R.A. experiments, as well as many other animal experiments, see this post: http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/61248-the-intelligent-smoker-what-should-a-smoker-take-to-nullify-harm/#entry564686
Malcolm
2015-12-30 04:32:12 UTC
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Post by nightlight
In normal science (unlike antismoking "science"),
Ah, Robert Ribbentrop has re-surfaced.

What you call "antismoking 'science'" IS normal science. None of the claims to the contrary by Ribbentrop and others have ever held water.
Malcolm
2015-12-30 04:27:51 UTC
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Post by nightlight
It's clear tobacco smoke was protecting him from lung cancers caused by some real lung carcinogens,
This is clearly ridiculous.
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